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Coming Out of the Closet

Posted by Willi on Friday, March 9th, 2007

A few weeks ago while I was in Burbank, my business partner tossed me an issue of Wired magazine and said read the article on the “New Atheism”. Until reading this article I was not aware of an Atheist Movement, much less a New Atheist Movement. I mean I assume there are organized groups of atheists but I knew nothing more than that they probably existed.

While I have a recollection of believing in Santa, I have no recollection of ever believing in God. I think the first time I categorized myself as an atheist was at the age of 14 when I used a black permanent marker to scrawl the words ATHEIST on my surplus military jacket which was already crowded with skulls, anarchy symbols and the names of skate punk bands like “Butthole Surfers“. I’m sure people took my stance on God very seriously at the time.

In college, I spent many hours debating many things with many people. Nothing different here. I minored in Philosophy at Illinois State University and often found myself arguing in the middle of class, against the existence of God, usually alone in my opinion. I had few friends that would consider themselves an atheist, and fewer still that would publicly deny the existence of God.

Since college my atheism is not something I’ve advertised. It only comes up as an internal stuggle when I find myself in situations where a friend or family member involves me in their religion: like when my sister asked me to read a passage from the Bible at here Catholic wedding. Or when one my close friends starts off a Thanksgiving meal with a prayer.

In both of those cases, I’ve had the urge to opt out, but haven’t, for fear of alienating myself.

In this light, I found it interesting to read about the New Athiest Movement, and their claim that not only should an atheist announce their disbelief in God, but should also stop respecting other people’s belief in God. My first thought was that the New Atheist obviously doesn’t attend their sister’s wedding or have friend’s over for Thanksgiving. I understand their point, and I want to be that type of atheist, except it’s simply impractical. I would offend people I care about.

But the fact remains that I don’t understand why intelligent people, specifically intelligent people I know, believe in God. If it weren’t for them, it would be easy for me to speak as Sam Harris does in the Wired article:

At some point, there is going to be enough pressure that it is just going to be too embarrassing to believe in God.

I shared the Wired article with my wife. Afterwards she asked me if I believed what the New Atheists believed. I answered yes and to my surprise, we debated about that position, and how that conflicted with her own spirituality (which is not even associated with organized religion or a belief in a “God”). And that’s when I realized how far in the closet I have been since the time I took a black marker to an old army jacket.

Time to start coming out.

Darwin
Austin Cline writes:

“I found it interesting to read about the New Athiest Movement, and their claim that not only should an atheist announce their disbelief in God, but should also stop respecting other people’s belief in God. My first thought was that the New Atheist obviously doesn’t attend their sister’s wedding or have friend’s over for Thanksgiving. I understand their point, and I want to be that type of atheist, except it’s simply impractical. I would offend people I care about.”

This all depends on how “respect” is defined. Respect is a very slippery concept which can come with a lot of different connotations. These two articles might help you sort out the different ways the term is used, to what degree religion or theism should be respected, and also whether anyone is justified in feeling offended if you don’t respect religion or theism:

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistsrespectreligion/a/RespectReligion.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheiststheism/a/RespectReligion.htm

I hope you find them useful. Welcome outside the closet!

March 9, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
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Austin Cline writes:

Addendum: I know those two links look really similar, but they lead to different articles. Really.

March 9, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
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Willi writes:

Great links Austin, thanks.

What I’d be interested in hearing, is a story of someone who for instance, opted out of a family pray at dinner. Normally what I do is just bow my head with everyone else and space out or try to find the common values in the words being spoken (common between say a Christian and myself).

The New Atheist would claim that by doing that I’m to some extent evangelizing with my dinner companions.

March 9, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
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Wendy writes:

Many interesting angles here, but first, there are organized groups of atheists? Hmmmmmmm, sounds like they’re almost . . . religious about their beliefs. :O

March 9, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
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jampick writes:

In this regard I’m atheist-curious. This is especially troubling for me to admit [what will my wife say] since for years I’ve considered myself an orthodox atheist.

My orthodoxy was challenged just as I was posting this comment. To trivialize the religious Judaea/Christian folks I was going to make some glib comment about the dark lord (i.e. Choose Vice/Elect Satan) when it occurred to me that I’m propagating the Christ myth just by keeping the Devil myth alive. God damn it.

Like dealing with a psycho girlfriend I should ignore rather than incite… but it’s just so much fun to joke about the devil. What is a fun loving atheist to do?

March 9, 2007 @ 10:34 pm
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Willi writes:

James, I had no idea. All those years, commuting together, meeting for coffee, living just down the street from each other. You should have told me!

March 10, 2007 @ 9:32 am
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[…] post about atheism reminded me of something. Not long ago my spouse and I were discussing death and souls (oh, the Deep Talks we have!), and he said something like, what did I care about souls since I did not believe in God anyway. Huh??!? I’m a believer  […]

March 10, 2007 @ 11:54 am
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Darcy writes:

You were out of the closet a long time ago!

Regarding your photo: As a biologist, I didn’t think that a belief in evolution necessitates atheism or that a belief in God necessitates rejection of evolution. Genesis is meant to be a SAGA of creation and not a scientific document.

The New Atheism quote “stop respecting other people’s belief in God” shocks me…particularly when this may yield intolerance, which is harmful to communities and relationships. Encourging atheists to feel supported in speaking their view and feeling accepted is important; however urging them to not respect and appreciate the diversity of cultures, faiths, etc, is irresponsible! It’s difficult to foster understanding, compassion, and empathy when disrespect of ideas or cultural practices is encouraged.

March 11, 2007 @ 1:08 am
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Willi writes:

“As a biologist, I didn’t think that a belief in evolution necessitates atheism or that a belief in God necessitates rejection of evolution. Genesis is meant to be a SAGA of creation and not a scientific document.”

If I take the evolutionary course all the way back to the Big Bang (and the moments just before the BB), I see no God in the process. So for me evolutionary theory does reject God: creator of the universe and necessary being. Having said that I do realize that that position is the other extreme to those who are strict creationists. I think over time we will continue to see a migration (in thinking) from one extreme (Creationism) to the other.

“however urging them to not respect and appreciate the diversity of cultures, faiths, etc, is irresponsible! “

I think they see it as a push back. Their claim is that by being even the most casual “church goer”, a person supports a larger organization who’s very nature is to not “appreciate the diversity of cultures, faiths, etc.” Religion as an organization, is aggressive and oppressive - pushing a single belief system on the world by usurping political and educational institutions.

I guess the interesting question for me is: what does showing (or not showing) respect for a belief in God (or no God) look like?  Ok so someone believes in God.  How do they show respect for someone’s belief that there is no God.  And vice versa.

March 11, 2007 @ 10:20 am
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steve writes:

Yes, God is pretend.

I don’t ever remember believing in god either. When I was about 4 years old, I was digging in the sandbox and a neighbor kid warned me that I was about to dig down to the Devil. This was pretty troubling and I stayed away from the sandbox for while.

Later, he and I were walking on top of a deep snowfall, (the kind with a hard frozen shell on top, and a light fluffy snow filling) and when my foot broke through and I sank up to my knee in snow, he warned me that the “boogey man” was about to grab my ankle and pull me under.

Right about then I put it together that this was the same fear-mongering little bastard who had ruined my deep-digging excercise in the sandbox.

I never worried about the devil or the boogey man again, just the things that people DO because of their fear of devils and boogey-men.

March 11, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
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Dawn writes:

Nice post Darcy!

What is most troubling about organized religion is the intolerance. This is also what is most troubling about the New Atheism. Why do the New Atheists believe they will be any less cancer-like to our society?

How difficult it is too see our on faults that are so easy for others to see. What the New Athesist dislike the most about organized religion is exactly what they are doing!

March 12, 2007 @ 9:19 am
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Holly writes:

After reading the article and without reading any of these comments, I found myself ready to type precisely what Dawn wrote. New Atheism sounds like a new religion to me, and another one that endorses intolerance. NA’s rise is very “logical” as a counter balance to the rise in religious fundamentalism in the world.

Here’s an amusing link: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
So many people who take this quiz are shocked at the results, as they end up in a religion they judge to be “bad.” That is, if they answer the questions honestly, and not end up mouthing their particular religious beliefs without thought.

Just something else to throw onto the bonfire of the philosophies: a book, Power vs. Force, by David R. Hawkins. Rev’s and 21st Century Bookstore both have it. I found it facinating, and it provided me another entire philosphy to layer over my own inner dialogue about beliefs, religion, and philosophy. It fits nicely with my mish mash of “beliefs,” which include the possibility that no one, including me, has it “right.”

Whenever I find myself in a situation where I am somewhat involuntarily yanked into another person’s religious beliefs by act, I go to the common good I can find within that person’s intent/belief. I let my mind and heart be there and ignore the other stuff.

My niece recently asked for fund raising asistance so she can go on a Christian mission to India with her college. I sent her some bucks regardless that mission work repulses me on the level of any one person/culture/religion claiming through implication by the need to convert, moral/religious superiority over another person/culture/religion. I gave her the money telling her that I love and support her in her desire to serve another being, and I hoped her “actions” in service would speak more loudly than any words. Why break her spirit?

March 13, 2007 @ 9:11 am
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Willi writes:

What I find interesting about that quiz is that it assumes you should practice a religion. Atheism isn’t even a result, rather it is lumped together with being Agnostic. Being and Atheist and being Agnostic are just as different as being a Christian and a Buddhist.

Most of the answers are “No God or supreme force. Or not sure. Or not important.” So my beliefs are lumped together with being uncertain or not caring - and neither are the case for an Atheist (let alone a NA).

I know it’s not to be taken serious (the quiz) but it does illustrate the frustration of living in a God centric world. The assumption that you worship God is everywhere, and sometimes unavoidable - the money I spend and the courts I use for example.

Holly I think you nailed it with this comment, “NA’s rise is very ‘logical’ as a counter balance to the rise in religious fundamentalism in the world.”

Then the question becomes - what is religious fundamentalism? I think most Americans associate that word with the middle east (i.e., Islam). But I associate it with the Judeo-Christian conservatives in *this* country.

March 13, 2007 @ 9:35 am
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Patrick writes:

I just read this great excerpt from one of Richard Dawkin’s books for work. It was a very refreshing break after 40 pages of not-quite-all-there attempts to reason a proof of God’s existence. I think the sum of one of the arguments for God was “I cannot imagine something greater than God, therefore God must exist.” That one gave me quite a headache, especially since I have to figure out how to index it.

Anyways: while I can appreciate the positions of Dawkins and the other NA’s, I find them a little unsettling in their absoluteness. I guess it’s because I usually try to live and let live, and would just as soon let the believers believe. Comes from growing up around too many of them, I guess, and too many different beliefs. Though I can see how some of the NA’s would argue that they’re just trying to restore some balance to a debate which has been completely ceded to the other side out of politeness, or perhaps the other side’s tendency towards being the only ones willing to say anything about it.

March 13, 2007 @ 10:09 am
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LGM writes:

I have read your blog, along with all the comments, and the links that go with them, with a completely open mind.
My request is that you would please read the essay at the following link, also with an open mind.

http://rzim.org/resources/essay_arttext.php?id=3

March 14, 2007 @ 9:27 am
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Willi writes:

Thanks for posting the link LGM.

Paul Copan (the author in the article LGM links) says, “The Christian must remember that the atheist also shares the burden of proof . . . “

I agree completely with him on this point. However, I find it odd that he labels Atheism in general as presumptuous based solely on the positions of a few Atheist/Agnostic philosophers who argue that the burden of proof is on the Theists. This is simply wrong (and I also think he misunderstands Flew’s position).

There is an extensive history of Philosophical arguments provided from both camps (Theists and Non-Theists) on the subject of God’s existence (or non-existence). I was very interested in understanding them through high school and college.

Pascal’s Wager, The Ontological Argument, The First Cause Argument, The Argument From Design, The Moral Argument . . .

I disagreed with them all.

The argument against the existence of God that most appeals to me, is one that has been around for some time: “The Problem of Evil”. It is an a posteriori argument that essentially claims that if God existed he/she/it would want to prevent (and could) suffering, but suffering exists, so there must not be a God.

I’m also fond of the arguments “Paradox of Stone” and “Multiplicity”. The last one states that since Gods of the different religions vary, then only one or none of them can be correct.

My understanding is that the New Atheist, as well as the “Old” Atheist, by their very nature, are more than willing to share the burden of proof.

March 14, 2007 @ 10:10 am
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Hi Willi,

Very provocative post - good on ‘ya for being willing to say all this out loud. Better to live by your convictions and be honest then to be in the closet - about anything.

To me, what matters the most is to practice tolerance and compassion with people. In the end that’s all we can really do. What troubles me about what you’ve described in new atheism is the intolerance. At least, that’s how it sounds to me. I hope not though because when we fail to allow for people to believe or be what they want, we get hatred and war.

I do see the point that many atheists do about the imbalance. I’ve never gone to dinner and had someone chant out an atheist speech while asking me to hold hands and close my eyes. Now that would be fun. :-)

Since you asked about experiences with pushing back on organized religion or experiences where you are auto-included, I’ll share some of my own. I’ve had plenty.

Admittedly most were when I was younger and they range from me being completely idiotic and childish to more respectful and reasoned. I used to nicely offer to sick my dog on Mormons and anyone else that graced my doorstep. By now, I’ve had plenty of great Mormon friends. Yes, I HAVE offended people by not participating in religious acts and specifically by reacting with indignant anger at my assumed inclusion. In retrospect this was extremely immature of me. There were times that I did that and I was OK with it, and others where I felt like a complete ass. You have to go back to intent. Is your point to just opt out respectfully or act like an idiot flailing yours arms around in indignation? One is lot more fun for you AND your friends and family than the other. Guess which?

I’ve also found it in me to enjoy prayer with friends for I no longer worry about being ‘part’ of their religion because I happen to close my eyes and hold their hands. What’s the big deal? Do your friends not know about your beliefs? Ah, I guess that was you whole point right? Right. Let people know when the time is right and 9 times out of 10 your friends respect that, and when they don’t, it’s probably because they’re practicing a habit, you know, as in something you don’t even think of. Let it go - it won’t kill you. If your friends on the other hand won’t let you have your beliefs then something needs to change.

Willi, I’m be damned (har har) if I’m not open minded about religions and spirituality of all types and I look at atheism the same way. There’s good and bad in it all. I have my own experiences to draw from that form the basis of my own spirituality and they give me what I need.

One last thought. I try not to assume I have any of this figured out, despite our ego’s best efforts to suggest otherwise. Challenge yourself to evolve your thinking in this area - attain a higher level of atheism, or spirituality, or religion, than you ever thought possible. To me, if you stop growing, you’re already dead.

March 19, 2007 @ 10:10 pm
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goblinbox writes:

Hi, athiest! *waves* Curious about why you picked Fairfield for your 3-minute commute. (You know this town’s chock fulla heathens, right?)

June 15, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
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